V Versus: Word Guru,

The “V Versus” segments will be debates between anyone and everyone who wishes to debate me on their points of view Versus mine concerning the LGBT and Transsexual movement. I would like to thank this gentlemen for encouraging responses that don’t reflect his own. I ask and invite any LGBT and Transsexual rights sites to link this post to their blogs, websites or other media. Remember, you will need to visit my other post about 1 post back to get the back story here and read his article. He has edited his article from the original. It’s still harsh and blunt but he added and took out a few things after my first post. – LiVia

Mr. Clifford presents himself as someone trying to help the gay community. He makes no mention of the Transgender or Transsexual communities either way. In this case, much to my disgust, “LGBT” is more of the name for the movement rather then the initials for those involved in the movement.

Frankly, I don’t think his kind of help is required because he is not striving for the same goals as we are. He is striving for his own. He follows our goals to a point but then falls back on the religion argument and the “Tradition” of Marriage.

I took away after reading his post that he believes ,in a nutshell, that the LGBT community deserves Civil Unions. For that I applaud him. As I mentioned before, it takes guts for anyone not in our community to take a stand like that. That’s pretty much where my praise stops.

If gays were given civil unions he believes ” This solution could well eliminate the moral majority opposition to the perceived threat to centuries of traditional moral marriage and the inroads to decay of the moral fabric of America.” He then goes on to say how the community uses strong arm tactics, deceptive adds, shameful tactics and venom that is stronger then our “enemy”, as he puts it.

Wow…pretty strong language from a supporter don’t you think? He also goes on to say that comparing our struggle to the struggle of the African American and Women’s rights movement is wrong. In his new article he is much less fiendish and he calls those in our community “Immoral” and “Arrogant” a lot less. He also back peddled on his statement that most of us “lack common sense” What really gets me is how you changed your post Mr. Clifford. You even portray the victim when you say “Though I disagree with homosexuality and believe it to be immoral, I have earnestly tried to convince LGBT activists to attempt comprehension of the wisdom of campaigning wisely and honorably to obtain the essential rights by civil union because of the monumental road block toward marriage approval. In retort, they nastily revile me for intolerance and the audacity of suggesting the perceived “insult” of the civil union solution. They immediately brand me as a hate monger and a bigot and issue the battle cry: “total equality” or nothing!

I wouldn’t got so far as to label you a Bigot and certainly not a hate Monger, but the rest fits. When you go on to talk about your experiences in Discrimination, I almost shed a tear…..almost. You took a stand against something you believe in and were punished for it. Yes, you were discriminated against. But as I said to you in my first response, my words were “to the level that” we experience it in the LGB and CERTAINLY as Trans. The very notion you would compare the things you have been subject to as experience to what I have been subjected to as a Trans Women when I just started transitioning, is an insult. A lot of our Straight supporters admit they don’t know what its like to be us, but they try to relate. That’s good.  No one likes being laughed at or anything else. But its rare when a White, Straight man in his middle age gets turned away service such as buying things at a store or give odd looks because you’re holding hands with the one you love. Its important to note that I speak from experience here. I know what its like to look like a white man(though not middle aged) and the difference when I transitioned and then started living in my correct gender.

Our fight is like the fight that other’s have waged to be equal. I know you disagree with my point when you say:

“I believe that when gays attempt to equate their quest with the Black civil rights movement or women’s suffrage, it is a terribly egregious insult to Blacks and women because the latter’s cause was just and they deserved rights. They had no inherent ethical or moral controversy swirling about them. However, the LGBT crusade is far removed from civil rights because, though they disingenuously claim the contrary, it is a siege against the moral fabric of our society and a heavy-handed Nazi-like power play to force the majority to capitulate and legitimize the immoral and often sexually depraved lifestyle of a small minority. It’s a marshal law revocation of majority rights to establish a dictatorship of the minority.”

Nazi-like power play? They deserved their equal rights and what, we don’t? There was no ethical or moral controversy? And you say people in the LGBT community lack knowledge of the past. Our demand for civil rights is FAR tamer then what was seen in the fight for African Americans. You speak of us as immoral and sexually depraved. That sir, is your opinion. Not a fact. Yes we are a Minority and as such deserve protection of the law and equality.

Black folk were considered ‘less than’ even though they were human beings. I agree that you can point to the Constitution and say their fight is different because it guarantees to EVERY man freedom and equality. But the MAJORITY, mostly in the south, didn’t want Black folks to have rights. So by your argument, “the Supreme court, by granting equality to every African American,  did a “Marshal law revocation of majority rights to establish a dictatorship of the minority.”  Amazing. Simply amazing a man as smart as you couldn’t make that correlation. What about women? We are still discriminated against. White, Black, doesn’t matter. In the south our place was perceived as being  ‘bare foot and pregnant’. Nearly everywhere it was clean the cloths, clean the house, raise the kids. It wasn’t until WW 1 and 2 that women went to work and then didn’t want to stop. Women today still make less then their male counter parts. My job was like that.

You say that asking for marriage is asking to go against 6,000 years of precedent. Well so was granting women equal rights. Excuse me, for ions before that women were “less than”. Times changed. We grew and found a higher understanding. Marriage was meant to bring together a man and woman for the point of reproduction, Financial gain and love. It was instituted many believe by God. Gay family’s can make money. We certainly know what love is, and perhaps we can’t procreate but we can adopt and care for children that those loving “Married” folks tossed away. Does that sound harsh? Perhaps but its truth. People paint us as being unable to raise a loving family just because we’re Gay or Trans. Yet Married people(not all) do terrible stuff everyday. They cheat, they have domestic Violence, they don’t raise their kids in a positive environment. Every reason people say we shouldn’t be able to adopt happens in current marriages somewhere in the US everyday.

I am concerned in seeing people promote marriage between a man and a woman like its some kind of Holy Rite as it use to be. Perhaps it WAS, but not so much today. Some people do respect the Holy Ritual today but so many more people marry for money, Visa’s, Green Cards, social status or sex. You know what else they marry for? Love. Non Christians Marry even though some don’t believe in the Holy Matrimony part. How is that in the tradition of Holy Matrimony? How is that following God’s intent for marriage?

A gay Family can also help raise the kids of their partner so that they grow up with two parents and not one. Statistics show that single parent children are more prone to crime, not going to college and lower self esteem. Is it not better for the child to have two parents that love them and help them grow up in a loving environment as Husband and Husband or Wife and Wife?

You also compare Marriage as a Privilege, almost like driving a car. Last I checked we didn’t consider it a Privilege to just live and be happy as you are. Also, the only requirement is to be Male and Female. Anyone else can lie about the reason they want to get married, such as committing fraud

Next you show compassion:

“On another note, I want to single out lesbians for some special consideration. I feel for you in your situation, because I do not see lesbianism as a great sin like male homosexuality, which is gross bestiality between humans and terribly grievous in the God’s eyes. It greatly saddens Him that His creation falls into such ruin. In addition, I find that most women are unable to grasp how different lesbianism is from gay male sexuality. There seems to be a mental block against the reality of its deplorable nature. Now for you who deal with a condition that is generally viewed as basically unnatural, though I agree it is a subject of wide and heated debate, but quite understandable considering how so many women just have a tendency for close affinity with one another, I offer a measure of compassion. Now, it is a bit of an insult to a guy when a lady shuns him for choice of a woman instead, like the simple things where women get up and dance with each other instead of asking a guy to dance, but overall, I think that the life that lesbians lead is quite benign and innocent compared to the repulsive practices that gay males engage in.”

I’m sorry Mr.Clifford but I know a lot of folks will be thinking it so I’m just going to say it. Of course a Straight male is going to not be so against Lesbianism. Thats Hot, right? I mean its just girls, what harm could come of it?

No, but in all seriousness you are correct when you say that females share a close affinity for each other. We do. Which reminds me to ask…I’m Transsexual. Born with male characteristics but my brain developed with a Female Gender. Since I was born I’ve been this was and I ask for you to state your opinion on Transsexuals if you will since you didn’t touch on it before.

In closing, I am not going to call you a bigot or a hate monger. I do not believe you are. I mean that and as you can see in my writings, I don’t hold back. I will say based on your writings you are a hypocrite. Sin is Sin. If gays are going to hell for being gay, then us Lesbians and Bi-sexuals are riding the bus too. Sadly, you may be on it with us. Review James 2:1-12. And Jesus said: 1 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

 5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,

Now I know better then some that you can turn right around and take quotes that speak against Homosexuality. I ask you read my “V for Vendetta: V Vs. Ex-ministries” post that talks about that directly.

I think you force your opinion and the opinion of the “Majority”(Which is shifting with the new Generation) as fact. You have some pretty harsh words for gay men. Makes me glad I’m not one because my feelings would be seriously hurt right now. I think you have an agenda. Your plan is to get people to agree on Civil Unions and in that course you will have also defended that precious title. Thats what all this is about. A title. As a Christian I am offended as hell that non-Christians can marry but I can’t. God loves me and if I could choose not to be TS, I would. Its hell.

People born gay I’m sure when they were younger wished they weren’t. Some, because of people like you Mr. Clifford kill themselves. They die because people call them names as you have called. Passed judgements on them as you have passed. And faced with the inability to “not be gay”, to not have that attraction for the same sex and  be told “God doesn’t love you” or “God won’t accept you unless you stop these sinful feelings.”…they die. Its sad. Its Cruel. And NO MAN has the right to speak God’s mind.

God knows we are imperfect. He says it alot in the bible. “For all fall short of the glory of God”. I think he takes that into consideration. For most people I would assume being Gay or Transsexual isn’t a choice(For some perhaps, for the vast majority, no). No more then you being straight is a choice. Its how you are. Its how you were programmed.

One day Mr. Clifford our glorious Lord and Savior is going to judge us. I will have to explain myself and my actions though God already knows me and what I have done. He has seen every tear, known every battle, seen every moment of anger and turned away in sadness when I Sinned. He knows my heart and my mind and there will be no secrets. The same will be for you.

Consider this as you go forward on your crusade to “help” the community. If I were Gay, I wouldn’t want you standing next to me knowing your feelings of those like me. If you hate Transsexuals I don’t want your help either. If I could only have your understanding…if I could have you stand next to me as a child of God, fighting for what you believe in(even if that was Civil Unions. Not everyone can fight the entire battle) and knowing you didn’t judge me, or look at me as filth or as anything less than you…..I would welcome you and call you a brother in arms. One day God will make all things right. Until that day comes, I will continue to have faith that equality for every person will triumph and is right in the eyes of God. I will ask for His strength as I move forward and I will beg that He guides me down the right road. I will hope that one day I can Marry before the eyes of the Lord as a Christian. Reflect on these words Mr. Clifford. We both can’t be right so one of us is wrong. One day we will find out who.



~ by LiVia on May 12, 2011.

3 Responses to “V Versus: Word Guru,”

  1. Bravo. I lovef this. You didn’t hold back. There are too many hipocrites out there that want to play both sides of the fence. Having strong knowledge of my african heritage and being transexuak I make the connetion all the time especially when I get turned down for job that I know that I’m qualified for.
    Yeah most straight men are ok with the idea of two women being together. Big surprise.
    Great post
    – Christina

  2. As long as you are committing yourself to Jesus and living daily with Him, you are loved and accepted. It’s then between you and Him for whatever will be done about your sexual orientation, if anything at all, for it’s the intimate relationship with Him that counts. No interference by over-zealous religious hard-liners can separate you from God’s love and care. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and all of us must offer up ourselves upon His alter of love, forgiveness, understanding, peace, and acceptance for healing of what afflicts or controls us or just plain abiding with Him until that day when all will be made perfect and we dwell in eternity with Him without suffering, pain, and rejection. So you just continue holding on to Him tightly and let Him teach and guide you by His Holy Spirit just how you should live and serve those you care about in the LGBT arena.

    It is all a confusing and frustrating morass of subterfuge and foolishness on both sides of the isle. I just keep asking diligently for the Lord to keep me focused on what He would have me do and trust in His guidance. As it appropriately says in Proverbs: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will guide your path.”

    Now, as for responding to your post, I think that you have so much understandable pent up rage, resentment, and frustration that you are prone to misinterpretation and erroneous assumptions. In so many areas of your post you are so far of course in your assessment that I find it not worth the effort to overcome your blight. Therefore, I will withdraw from debate and just leave the above 2 paragraphs to be my final conclusion and best wishes for you and your cause.


    • I have to admit I didn’t expect you to withdraw, but when faced with facts and having your own words shown in a different light, I can understand not replying.

      I want you to know I re-read my post….twice actually and I see nothing in there that projects me “off course.” It is as it is. As to the “frustration and resentment”, you’re damn right. But I see the same frustration and resentment in your posts as well. Everyone is frustrated on both sides, but to try and demean my response as a rant by a raging person who’s off course, I believe disservices you, Sir. I will continue reading what you write and regardless of if you reply or not I am going to respond here. I do this because you are so active with the community and you write letters to the LGBT people on the main front, as well as letters to the editor. For me, part of fighting the battle is to expose those who claim to help us, while at the same time loathing Gays and the same time. I hope you continue to stand up for what you believe in, but don’t be surprised if you find yourself one day not only rejected by people who hate your fight for our Civil Unions, but also rejected by the community you find so immoral, disgusting and undeserving of Equal Rights.
      I mean it when I say God Bless you and he grant you wisdom to follow His course for you, whatever that may be.


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